Apple complaints thread

Wow, a point 6. When was that for the last time? Snow Leopard?

I miss 10.4.11
So very much.

Things worked.


No app store.

sigh the past.

That, I don’t miss. The Mac software market was hard, expensive and low quantities. Boxed distribution. The App Store is the best thing that ever happened to Mac developers.

I wish the same had existed for Windows Xojo apps under Windows 7.

The software market I remember from back then wasn’t as vast as your recollection.
It could be the difference in our ages at the time.

I remember lots of indie software, bustling internet communities, and crazy cool new ideas.
The people that started MacHeist had a project before it that was like a reality show for indie software developers and it spawned cool things like Overflow.

Myself, a large number of users, and several prominent Mac developers would argue against this to the death with you :stuck_out_tongue:

You should have seen the crazy eighties, and met people who invented so many things we take for granted today. Indies like Dan Bricklin, Jim “Button” Knopf, Peter Norton who worked all by himself. Fact is very few new ideas came from big companies.

The point is not to argue to death, at least I am not going to participate in this kind of sterile debate. I can only speak for myself.

My first software publishing business was back in 1987. Match Software in the US and Hyperware in France. At the time, distribution was almost exclusively in boxes or by mail, and the market was just starting to pick up. Apple Centers were downright obnoxious, and Apple Expo in France was the only place were to make big sales to the public. Pretty much the same picture in the US : the best business I made until mid nineties was in fan shows.

The amount of money that went into packaging was huge, the overhead tremendous, and distributors were regularly asking 60% of list price.

In terms of electronic distribution, Compuserve was the only venue, shareware all the way.

The Millennium was not the paradise you remember. LIfe is such that we tend to remember the good old times only.

The physical Apple Stores were, and have remained extremely tough ; only big companies can ever hope being distributed.

The arrival of the App Store marked a great relief for indies like me : no overhead, no marketing expenses, and a steady flow of business. As for the 30% cut, compared to Ingram, it was a bargain.

Now, don’t take me wrong : the App Store is not the alpha and omega. That is precisely where arguments are often flawed. Is it because we geeks enjoy so much computer, often enough the debate becomes absolute : either/or. In fact all distribution is fine. All experiments are fine. Keep an open mind. That helps go through the motions.

But this is what we can do, if enough of us Buck the trend, maybe they’ll listen? Filing bug reports is like whispering in a typhoon.

As long as we offer the option anyway.

Probably Not enough; most of the code needs to be ripped out and replaced, with code designed for a computer, not a phone!

You know what I mean; you have a class or function that’s simply so buggy, every time you fix one, you make two new bugs. Then you rip it out and start again, and the whole new class/function is then flawless.

Yes. So much yes.

Usually beta installation is pretty painless. 10.11.6 has decided to bring back ugly El Capitan picture, and seems to insist on resetting some things. Gosh, Apple, what’s getting into you ?

The more it goes, the more it looks as if the former Windows 8 team has joined Apple :wink:

[quote=267801:@Michel Bujardet]
The more it goes, the more it looks as if the former Windows 8 team has joined Apple ;)[/quote]

Well, Apple have been short of a Steve or two. :wink:

Amazing parallel evolution :
ChromeOS is now running Android apps.

Now after Microsoft, Google is merging laptop and mobile. Chances are iOS is on its way to OS X.

Please do not say that - even in jest!!!

Steve Ballmer should be available, he has already experience signing Macbooks!

Sometimes I really wonder what the Apple developers think. Mail is such a special app. Had to move a couple of mails to Gmail for testing. That I can’t copy mails anymore but have to export, import and then drag is another story. Have a look at the progress area:

“E-Mails bewegen” (move emails) is okay. But the text below: is this legible for you? Apple thinks so. And the tiniest blue dot on the grey line is supposed to be a progress bar. Which I only saw a couple of days ago. Most likely Apple will also close my second bug report “per human interface guidelines”. Incredible.

I also reported that the progress bars were next to useless in Yosemite, especially the ‘undetermined’ progress as there is a lack of contrast ‘definition’. My Radar also got closed as a duplicate and the progress bar has not improved.

And both of my serious bugs for Mail got closed as duplicate with bugs whose age is in the 2 digits. My bugs are 26 Mio and the duplicates are 4 Mio. Sigh…

But it looks pretty.

Open & compare HIG’s from 1997, 2003, 2005 and 2013 or newer
Apples literally rewritten or expunged a LOT of useful information about WHY you design things the way you do
Instead they seem to be going for a “look” rather than “how to make a usable discoverable UI” like in the past
No idea how much of this is driven by iOS where space is an issue (so you dont have menus and you lose a pile of discoverability in the process)

[quote=269544:@Norman Palardy]Open & compare HIG’s from 1997, 2003, 2005 and 2013 or newer
Apples literally rewritten or expunged a LOT of useful information about WHY you design things the way you do
Instead they seem to be going for a “look” rather than “how to make a usable discoverable UI” like in the past
No idea how much of this is driven by iOS where space is an issue (so you dont have menus and you lose a pile of discoverability in the process)[/quote]

I read somewhere that the reasoning (which I don’t agree with) was that all those explanations and rules applied to a world still unused to GUIs, so that foundation was necessarily made from scratch and had to be explained.

The idea was (again, I don’t agree with it) that things had changed a lot, people were a lot more knowledgeable and, most importantly, a lot more flexible than all those rules allowed for. The rules were removed to make it clear the users are more flexible now and there’s a lot that can be done even if completely new.

To my eyes, this was acknowledging something that was going on, but in a bad way. The HIG was a bible for all these things and a way to have a “definitive” rule you could then decide to move away from. That baseline was removed and now everything goes, which promotes a lot of experimentation but also promotes building without understanding the effect on new users.

It’s a bit of a shame, really.

Also a shame that all the studies and obvious analysis that went into defining the HIG for iOS (which I believe was almost as exhaustive and revolutionary as the original mac’s was) was never published, so the rationale for a lot of the decisions (most of which proved to be correct) isn’t obvious and can’t be extended scientifically by further experimentation.

Tog and partner wrote a great review of what has disappeared from UI with iOS (and increasingly with OS X as well)

Much of the lack of discoverability is, I assume, based on lack of space on iOS.
The iDevices being as small as they are force you to NEED a manual to find things out because discoverability is mostly missing.
How many folks knew without reading the manual or having someone tell you that you could shake the phone to undo an edit ?
You might have accidentally found it but there sure as heck wasn’t any menu item you could see “Hey there IS a way to undo this!”

And pushing that into OS X seems to me to be a huge mistake for all the wrong reasons.
It why I suggested reading the different versions of the HIG. They’ve evolved to remove the rationale for why you design things the way you do and focus on the look where old ones focused on the WHY’s of presenting things in a particular way.
That IMHO is a real tragedy. Good design seems to be “looks nice” without the requisite “and is easy to figure out”.

There are things like, as Sam mentioned, progress bars that you can’t tell ARE progressing because they are so small. Thats just stupid to make things “look” a specific way but removes useful information for the end user. And there’s no excuse or rationale for it. Lack of space on a laptop or desktop screen isn’t the issue like it might be on iOS.

Buttons & labels, eps on iOS, are almost indistinguishable from each other. There’s no reason for that but they are.

And its not just UI thats gotten this treatment.
I recently bought the world travel adapters and the description of each one is written in grey on grey (yeah brilliant)
Its an ever so slightly darker grey on light grey that makes it so hard to read I needed a really bright light & a magnifying glass to read which one was which.
Black print on grey would be more readable but I can only assume was deemed “ugly”.

Pretty for pretty sake is not “design” - its art and it may be pretty but it may also not be useful.


I agree that hard decisions had to be made for iOS deciding what should be discoverable (vs. obvious) and what “discoverable” actually means in such a different UI. I don’t think in general the decisions made by the original iOS team were too bad, considering how new everything was and how constrained they were (also: we’d seen how other types of UI worked in places like Windows Phone and Palm and they’d proven to be hostile to users, partly because they tried to leverage Desktop rules onto a palm-sized device).

Moving those new paradigms onto desktop computers, where constraints and capabilities are so radically different that the only thing in common is that both platforms have at least one screen, is ridiculous.