A little Xojo rant

Off-Topic
1

Let me start off by saying two things: first, I’m really frustrated with Xojo right now and, second, this is only the first major web application I’ve worked on since taking a class in Xojo about a year ago. This message will focus entirely on the frustration because, in this case, I actually feel that building a web application in Xojo is slowing me down instead of making things easier.

Let me explain:

I’m building a web app for a client and I’m also evaluating whether or not I should dive in and purchase Xojo Professional because it makes my job easier. Its a simple web that mostly just interacts with a database and analyzes some data. The trick is that I want to make it look nice so I’m using WebStyles, WebDialogs, and WebContainers. Should be pretty simple, right? Not even close!

For the last roughly 48 hours I feel like I’ve been battling Xojo 100% of the way. First, Xojo was just losing code and huge parts of the project in one fall swoop. I’d write code for an hour, saving every now and then, close Xojo and reopen it and the code was gone. All of it. I eventually figured out that the problem was that I was saving the file as a binary project and that wasn’t working for me. So I started to save the project as an XML project and it stopped losing my work. Ok, that was weird but I could deal with it and I’d actually rather save it as an XML project anyway.

Next, I tried to use a WebDialog. I created a dialog and tried to apply a style to an instance of it. Guess what? No matter what I’d do, it simply would not apply the style. Eventually, I figured out that styles would only work if my dialog was shown as a Pallet. Nothing else would allow me to apply style. Weird.

Next, I tried to use a basic container control. Nothing fancy because I was a bit worried that fancy things wouldn’t work. So I thew some controls on a container, instantiated it on a webpage and selected a style. Guess what? The container won’t even show on the page! I’ve toggled around with just about everything I could find and NOTHING is making that damned container show. So I’m at a complete standstill until I figure this out. I’m not writing another single line of code because I don’t trust what Xojo might decide to do next.

Understand that I am not a total newbie. I’ve been developing software professionally in other languages for almost 20 years. I’m just new to Xojo. But it seems like the tool is amazing for desktop apps but absolute crap for web applications. How can I decide to buy it or not if I can’t even really evaluate the product as its advertised? This is one of the most frustrating experiences I’ve had in a very long time. Just wow.

Now, I will say I did start off using a slightly older version of Xojo (one of the 2014 ones) and I realize things were still getting shaken out. But I just tried the project in the latest version of the product and its still the same. Is ANYONE developing serious (and I mean commercial, not hobby) projects using Xojo Web that can honestly say it’s working fine for them? If so, cam you tell me what I might be doing wrong that’s making it such a crap experience? Is it that I’m working on a Windows machine? Is it that I’m creating the project in an older version of Xojo? Is Xojo Web just broken for serious projects?

I’m sorry for the rant folks but this is incredibly frustrating stuff to deal with when you’re working on a project you need to get done in a timely manner. All of the productivity that Xojo brings in coding is quickly being wiped out in time spent fighting the IDE. Of course, I’m too far alone on the project to bail now so I have no choice but to fix the thing which, of course, means my project will be late and I might just lose a customer (my fault for doing this in a product I’d not used much before and didn’t know I couldn’t rely on, I know). Still it’s frustrating.

Any advice besides “go get drunk”?

2

Well, we’ve just completed two Xojo web apps for clients. One is running on Xojo Cloud and will be moved to 1701 Software and the other is being run on a Windows server as a standalone app (not cgi). Xojo web is roughly 50% of our business and we have multiple developers. We’ve been using Xojo (Real Studio) for 15 years now.

So, my guess is that you’re doing something just a bit wrong and it’s throwing everything off. It’s not uncommon for people new to Xojo to force it to do something like “x” language because that’s what you’re used to.

I would take a look at the web version of Eddies Electronics. You might be able to glean some information out of that.

FWIW, we also do Xojo Training Videos (probably not applicable to you with your experience). At http://xojo.bkeeney.com/XojoTraining/ we have over 60 hours (200+ videos) and most come with source code. We do have one complete start to finish web app (realize it’s a training app not a commercial app).

3

I didn’t create it, but I now contribute to a project that includes, among other things, a web app, and I can tell you that it’s a thing of beauty and a joy forever. We use container controls, toolbars… in fact, I think we use every interface element available with practically no issues.

I have to agree with Bob here that something on your system is a bit off.

4

That you loose work when saving is a red flag. Something is VERY wrong. I would do a complete system check incl hardware, and then reinstall Xojo.

5

This kind of stuff has been reported to happen when saving the project over a cloud drive such as DropBox.

Just posted a workaround here https://forum.xojo.com/25515-how-do-i-style-a-dialog for the background color that works fine for all dialog types.

Post your code.

Calm down, smell the roses, and when you come back, take it one step at a time.

The save issue is a nasty one and you should not continue until it is solved. If it is not a cloud drive issue, something is very wrong, as other have said.

For the rest, before getting angry, ask for help here, and if you have an open mind, you will get prompt assistance.

I do not believe Xojo Web is anything like ■■■■.

6

Hi folks,

Let me apologize for coming off so strong about my issue. Had I sat down and thought about things before I posted, I probably would have come across much less acerbic than I did. I was rather annoyed, tired, and stressed and I apologize for letting it get the better of me. I’m very appreciative that you guys allowed my little rant and didn’t roast me for it. Have a good night.

7

Loosing data is the worst thing that can happen to a dev. Getting rid of frustration by writing about it is good.

But why don’t you use SVN/Git/whatever for your source? When my main project get’s corrupt - happened once or twice - I restore it from SVN and work on. One single project file is the worst thing that you can do. Really. Even if you only use external items it will be 100% better.

Whenever you hit a roadblock:

  • use timeboxing. Work for another 60 minutes on the problem and then you STOP and take a break.
  • sleep, shower, go to the woods and don’t work on your project, work your problems out without the code. For me this has worked so very often.
  • try to build the simplest case of example and show that to us. Usually the problem is a simple one.

That said: sometimes I want to hit the guys working on Mail. What were these guys thinking? Can I rant some more? These people make my life so very hard.

8

I had a similar problem of losing work when I was with another backup service. The problem was the Backup service’s process that was responsible for checking for changes and then write them out would hang after it writing data to the backup server. The next time I tried to save my work in Xojo, it seemed like it saved, but it couldn’t write to the file because the Backup service still had the file open. Ran into this numerous time before I found out what the issue was. I moved to CrashPlan as my backup service and I don’t have those problems anymore. FYI, this was not saved as a binary project, but rather as the text version for use with a Version Control System.

9

I experience this with files stored on a Synology NAS. Frequently the IDE does not accept any typing. It does not freeze but it just refuses any typing. After some Ctrl-S it is gone.

10

@David Sisneros - thank you for puting also your second statement in this thread. This is what it is, every developer has to pay some learning money when he starts with a new platform.
I would advise, before taking off with a commercial project, do some projects which allow you to learn without the risk of business damage or whatever.
Next I would like to confirm what you experience here: the Xojo community and Xojo Inc. guys feel like friends in crime, always willing to support a colleague developer. Together we make wonderful things.

11

David:

This post is in Off-Topic and this is good. What you miss is to specify the sub-object of your rant: WEB development.

12

David Sisneros;

Thank you for your message and the information.

I am using Xojo 2015 r2.3 on Windows7 and sometimes the navigator loose objects. Up until now, I thought it was my doing. But now I see that you experience the same I know better.

I also experience moments when the IDE is not responsive and seems to hang. Or variables going from “global” to “public” which has no negative effects.

I am using HTML5 together with CSS3 and JavaScript to create responsive websites. I would never use Xojo for the whole project, but use it for the parts which are really interactive with the user. The framework of websites created by myself is completely in HTML5/CSS3. For showing external files I am using JavaScript.

Up until this moment I do not use the WEB edition. However I already without trying it out, put a lot of thought in it and it certainly in some parts, would make my life easier. However, I am a control freak, I code completely manually which gives me complete control (only me to blame when something is not working). To give you an idea, most of my pages validate without error from the very first time.

Maybe it is a good idea to combine technologies, HTML5/CSS for your framework and layout and Xojo WEB for the more interactive parts. That is the way I am thinking.

For loosing work when saved, from time to time I experience that too. I solve that by making manually backups on another harddisk. It is not only cloud or Dropbox (I do not use any of them), the cause is in Xojo itself.

I think they would better rewrite their IDE in another language. There are so many problems and complaints about it. This IDE is very complex and maybe Xojo is not the best tool to create it. I do not know, the only fact I know is that it gives us a lot of problems.

On this moment I am not renewing because I like to see how things go with 64bit. In the past years, I renewed because I want to support Xojo development. However, I feel strongly as a Windows only user, left behind by Xojo inc. Do not misunderstand me, I like to work with Xojo very much and will renew in the future my pro license again for sure. But on this moment, I like to send Xojo inc a serious signal. Most things are concentrated around the Mac, IOS and the Raspberry. We need Windows, Android and Arduino (for the latter I am using C). So you can see for yourself, Xojo is not filling in our needs. But for Windows desktop development, with a lot of creativity, Xojo is an excellent tool for the job.

As for most of us, Xojo will work for you too. Just put a more learning in it and have an open mind. There are moments that I blame Xojo for something not working and found out later that it was my own limited thinking which hold me back. Those things happens, like frustration, feel the need to rant. As long as people are polite (like your masterpiece) it is fine.

Myself I appreciate the people here very much for their friendly way of helping each other. There is a lot of knowledge and experience here, so you will find solutions for your problems. The only thing you have to do is ask.

Wish you a very nice day and happy Xojo developing.

Chris