A better, open forum for discussion?

You are so right Don! I have been guilty of “angry posting” from time to time. When I come across these posts now, it feels like an idiot wrote them. Yes, it is much better to cool down before posting. Thank you for the reminder!

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Precisely, Louis! If everyone made a conscious effort to train their reactions to hit that “Pause Button” (just for a few hours if necessary), the topic will still be there tomorrow for you to comment … and a good chance the vitriol would be markedly reduced from what it is now.

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And locking a thread is a far cry from banning someone.

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But locking a thread is frustrating for those who wanted to participate (constructively and without insult).
And when we don’t like the discussion or we feel we are getting stuck in the wrong, we become aggressive and vulgar. But that doesn’t only happen on the forums! On the other hand on the forums you can’t answer.

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Exactly, it is more like a good excuse to avoid topics you dont want to be discussed.

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Thats what triggered my original discussion on this. As @Don_Lyttle said I was worked up from looking at other threads and should have just let it go before responding but Xojo is a 20+ year old product that is used by many so its going to have both its praises and criticisms. I applaud the effort thats been done with such a small team, and I do apologize for calling out Geoff personally (especially since I’ve never spoken to him, its only been through reading replies made here or on other forums and groups over the years). I understand especially in this day and age what Xojo is both accomplishing and trying to accomplish is a huge task, and thats part of the reason why I use it. I was just mostly venting my annoyance with a lot of issues with it recently here, but appreciate the discussion thats come from it.

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We have no problem with constructive criticism and there’s no shortage of evidence of that on this forum. What we do have a problem with is anyone who can’t find it within themselves to keep their tone polite and respectful. We expect everyone to act as they would if they were standing in front of the others to whom they are communicating with on this forum. I have met in-person all but one of those that have been banned and to my knowledge they rarely if ever acted in real life in the same way they did that resulted in being banned. Acting like a reasonable person is not a big ask.

We want this forum to be a welcoming place for users and that’s not achievable if rudeness, disrespect and vitriol are allowed.

When conversations get locked, it’s because they are devolving and we stop them before they get too out of hand.

This forum is here to support Xojo users. If you’re here to discuss Xojo (including legitimate criticism) in a productive and respectful way, you’re welcome here and should have no concerns about what you post or worry about being banned.

Treat other people the way you expect to be treated. It’s the golden rule we all learned as kids. It’s as true today as it was the day we each learned it.

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And there is a very good alternative coming up called TwinBasic.

It will take some time before they release versions of Mac and Linux.

Current the version for windows is coming up really great!

Another one is recently launched MixLangz.

Indeed there are alternatives.

The thing is, at least for a professional like me, a powerful app means 6 or 7 months development, which is not trivial. If I wanted to do software nomadism, I would lose a great deal of money.

Some of the apps I currently have in the Mac App Store or the Microsoft Store have been created back in 2001 with Realbasic. When I wanted to put that in the MAS in 2013, I had very little to do to load the original source in Xojo. That is one advantage of the tool: stability. In all these years, I did encounter bugs, but none severe enough or that could not worked around, to merit leaving Xojo altogether.

I have since been forced to move to another Basic publisher for Android and iOS, since the Xojo iOS tool was still green and tart. And Android is not ready yet (although it seems to be coming soon). But by the same token, I don’t plan on moving away from the existing code, I invested enough time in to flake away.

Every single tool I worked with since the eighties had bugs. That is, I believe, the nature of software.

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I don’t think TwinBasic anywhere close to being a contender yet. Besides being more expensive and less capable than Xojo, the fact that they are trying to preserve VB quirks bothers me. I understand the goal of 100% perfect conversion, but to me that makes it only viable for legacy projects. I wouldn’t want to start anything new with it.

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I think we are not allowed to mention TwinBasic. However, after reading the above replies about it, I googled it and took a quick look. I agree with Thom McGrath, it is surely not a contender for Xojo.

I cannot understand why “VB” which is abandoned by Microsoft decades ago, is still of interest. When I switched from VB6/Visual FoxPro in 2005 to RealBasic (Xojo now), I never looked back.

Changing to TwinBasic sounds like a high step back for me. Xojo is fully OOP and despite its shortcomings, our creativity is the limit with Xojo! If anyone asks me, I will advise them to just stay with Xojo which I estimate is now 23 years in business. In this time, many came and many go.

About the moderation of this forum, it sometimes also annoys and frustrates me when interesting subjects get closed because people are not being polite or rude to each other. But at the same time, this is necessary and I do not complain about it. I prefer this forum to be a friendly and helpful place.

One thing I very much regret is the banning of Norman Palardy which was always very helpful. I wish whatever happened between Norman Palardy and Xojo inc. will be resolved. For the rest, I agree with the moderators here. Keep up the good work!

Chris

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In VB6 The IDE is faster, the languaje is powerfull enought, the IDE is actually keyboard accesible and yu can work almost without a mouse improving productivity, editing code is also faster. For a RAD it has many more controls out of the box, can create custom controls, DLLs, plugins. An app made 20 years ago runs perfectly this day in Windows11 etc, etc.

Now, even if VB was not fully “OOP” it was already “Object-Based”. Being 100% compatible with Object-based is just that even xojo is cable of writing “Object-Based” code.

Just llok at the features, real Multi-threading with the standard library made fully thread-safe, Generics, Overloading, etc

Usually this is common on people who did not knew/understad the language it is relevant because it has 1000x active users than xojo for example and if some one could make a good replacement will be an instant success with millions of developpers looking for this.

It is a shame that Xojo never fully pursued this. It was not to difficult, faster IDE, more controls, more vb6 keywords… But they decided to go the other way around with api 2 and the var

Not so it seems: RAD Basic: a 100% compatible Visual Basic 6 solution by Carles Royan — Kickstarter

Steve

That is a different story. RAD basic pretends to be an exact copy of VB6 with even the same file format to save proyects. Why backup/purchase something that it is going to have just a subset of the same features as the original? Nothing comparable to the idea of TwinBasic.

I would understand why someone with legacy software would search for compatibility.

But frankly, I dropped VB back in 2001 and never looked back.

When much earlier I wanted to get into the Windows Store, I have to use VS and VB Net, I cannot say it overwhelmed me, but there was not much love anyway.

Was what triggered my response

I actually think the BASIC-heritage language aspect of what XOJO is these days is the least important aspect USP and future potential-wise of XOJO.

The key “Crown Jewels” are the fact its a cross platform IDE and framework that uses Native GUI elements in all the supported platforms - and that it has a very productive IDE and a clean consistent API.

This all becomes even more the case once Android support is added.

So back to language - this may be controversial - but I think once the current “biggie” - and its been a huge task clearly - ANDROID is done and settled in - it would be worthwhile looking at the compiler and all the language processing code - and seriously considering making XOJO a multi-language IDE in a similar fashion to what VS is these days.

XOJO - given it supports so many platforms now - could for example become a teaching tool used in school and colleges etc - if it allowed users to write code in the most common 4GL - type languages - for example even just adding C# and python as options - all with shim code to mate with the XOJO API - would allow a wider selection of possible users- and would be great even for current seasoned XOJO users ( like yours truly ) who might want to dabble with those two languages.

Clearly C# is very close to XOJO - because for the most part C# and MS VB.net are in essence doing the same kind of thing with VBnet and XOJO sharing so much in common over the decade and more.

Now I’m not of course suggesting replacing the XOJO language with VB.net - even though they do share a lot in common! But C# and python would be good.

In fact - given the limited amount of C++ cross-platform frameworks out there - and the questionable user-friendliness of them. Why not also consider allowing a C++ API to be exposed and used - if necessary ? Both inside the XOJO IDE or outside?

This is probably “fighting talk” and asking for ridicule. But this is what I think. The Crown Jewels of XOJO are its IDE , its well honed cross platform support via one API - and the least important of all this - and obviously the area that has required least developer effort over the years ( and rightly so ) is the actual basic-like language.

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