Xojo Web 2.x and COVID-19 (Corona)

General
1

In Germany / Europe) we will face complete lockdown very soon. Our customers are already all working remotely starting tomorrow and beside some remote help here and there, we won’t face any new business. Bavaria has closed its borders, the free state is locking down the latest on Wednesday, and most likely whole Germany will do so by then.

My company will have nothing else to do than either learning some new programming skills or migrating projects to be finally “cloud-enabled”, aka web apps. For the latter there are 2 main reasons:

  1. We now have time, lots of time (this lockdown will last at least 2 to 3 days, but as a PD I personally assume it will last at least until the end of April.
  2. Though Germany (and Europe) had a lot of mistrust against any cloud solutions, “Corona” seems to be changing the rules of the game quite quickly. Consequently what better to do with our “leisure” non-paid time to prepare ourselves for the future after the COVID-19 epidemic situation?

As we are all waiting for Xojo WEB 2.0 it would be fantastic to use our time for learning this new technology. Well, I’m very aware that SARS-CoV-2 doesn’t know any borders, and the US president is very late testing for the virus, the USA will most likely face a similar situation quite soon. I very much appreciate Geoff’s open writing on this matter.

But still, I would very much appreciate seeing the next release with new functions as soon as possible. Now ASAP in Xojo speech often means that we are not talking in weeks, or even months but years, and in the past, I have never pushed - as I sincerely believe it is a bad thing to do. Good things need time. Albeit a new release would be the perfect match in the current situation! :slight_smile:

I’m sure that not only prof. developers like me, who are doing a significant amount of their business through developing would enjoy it very much. Most certainly hobby developers will have very soon a lot of spare time which they might finally want to invest in learning Xojo.

This post is a very early Christmas wish (to be delivered now), I’m absolutely aware of how stupid it might sound. For sure I don’t want to open a discussion about Xojo’s release strategy. I don’t even know if I’m the only one with this kind of idea in mind. But sitting on an email to address directly to Geoff, it came to my mind that others might share the same thoughts and if then their opinions might be a help for the Xojo management to see the urgency we are facing.

It doesn’t seem the right time to build a complex new Web App in Xojo Web 1.0. But now we have time and without much business, we only have the chance to invest in our future (hopefully there will be one). Hence we will be forced to use PHP7, JavaScript and some frameworks, which doesn’t seem logical so close to the sunrise of Web 2.x.

Thoughts? Am I the only one, or what are you guys planning to do with your spare time?

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Certainly a good time to learn something new.

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you will learn the pros and cons between native and web apps :slight_smile:

i think many of us waiting for web 2.0 … i guess we get a pre-release soon.

the mistrust is there because microsoft/google/facebook/… are NOT trustworthy. < facts
plus others can get insight in your data from all over the world.

if you like masochistic use it :wink:

if you like to see something interesting: OpenXava

4

As rule of thumb: Do not plan something with unreleased features. And even if Xojo will deliver Web 2.0 soon, it will take a certain time before everything is stabilized and ready for production. But in saying this, it doesn’t mean that you should not deal with it. The more you learn and get familiar with it, the better you can cope with Web 2.0 when it’s finished.

Take care of your infrastructure, divide your network in zones with (open source) firewalls in between. Reduce your dependency toward Software-, Cloud- and Subscription services. Learn to set up and operate your own Nextcloud Server. Use your time in Home Office.

5

Word had it that participants in XDC would be given a beta or alpha version of 2020R1 with Web 2.00 inside. But that is only a wild, unsubstantiated rumor at this stage. Besides, the virus got XDC canceled.

Tell me about that. President Macron told us tonight that the lockdown starts tomorrow… Plenty of time to catch up on bug fixing and new features. If only I can find the energy.

Germany especially, passed laws against companies that took data over the Atlantic. But the concept of cloud is nothing else than a new name for hosted solutions. Which by definition the web is.

With some luck…

Except that if you never created anything in Xojo Web, it could be good to at least learn the basics with the present Xojo Web. The enjoyment will be even better when Xojo Web 2.00 arrives.

6

That’s very good advice.

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since web 2.0 is a complete rewrite wouldnt it make more sense to just wait and then only learn the new web 2.0 way instead ?

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While it IS a complete rewrite, the basic ideas are the same. It does use API 2.0 so that is different. The rewriting to me is more about things like performance and handling areas better that are fragile today such as the user’s internet going down for a moment.

I always tell people to use the tools they have today. If someone was planning on building a web app in Xojo, I would suggest they start now and know that they will likely want to devote some conversion time when Web Framework 2.0 is released.

As I’m sure you know well, it’s often the layout design and application logic that are the time-consuming parts. Placing controls on the layout and writing the code, once you know exactly what you want, is not nearly so time-consuming, at least in most cases.

9

Thank you all for an interesting discussion. You can’t know, as I very rarely post here - shame on me. But I’m a Xojo developer for over 15 years. Most of the time I’m in a big rush when developing with Xojo, I’m using the forum mainly for finding solutions to known issues only and “stealing” your workarounds. I probably owe you all a couple of cold ones.

This said we are running a bunch of Xojo web apps already, and I’m very, very aware that porting a desktop app to the web isn’t an easy task, at least not even close to only copy and paste your code - it will be more or less a complete re-engineering of our desktop apps. But that would be fine (as it is today, still much easier and faster than any other approach). With Graffiti Web (which we are using for all our apps), apps are already looking good with Xojo Web, but why should I now do that, if in, let’s say 3 months, we have a completely new Web 2.0 redesign.

@Geoff Perlman hints are already very helpful. But let’s take for instance the missing log-in module in web framework 1.0. If web 2.0 has one out of the box I don’t know to bother with my own modules and workarounds any longer.

@Norman Palardy hits the top of the nail. I know that patience is a virtue (and I have been patient - as we all are - for quite some time). Furthermore, I wanted to open this conversation in the pre-release area, but for some reason, I can read there but not open a new conversation.

I just will currently have a lot of time on my hands (as most likely all of us very soon) to investigate what we can do with Web 2. It would just be unfortunate to invest now into further optimizing our web 1.0 skills and developing even more workarounds if a few weeks/months later, we have a new version that will solve most of them ;-).

I know that the team has there internal schedule and stability is more important than publishing a buggy release. In other words, a first alpha in the pre-release section would come in handy during these difficult times.

On the other hand as a physician I’m afraid to say that most likely COVID-19 will keep us busy for a very long period of time - I probably should be more interested in the feature set of Web Framework 3.0. :-(-

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[quote=479336:@Geoff Perlman]
I always tell people to use the tools they have today. [/quote]
Generally I’d agree but we already know that web 2.0 IS coming - soon (very soon)
I wouldnt tell someone to go buy a brand new car the day before I know a new model is being announced or the day before Apples scheduled to release a new one
Personally that advice holds here as far as I’m concerned but then I’m not building this project so …

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[quote=479337:@Jeannot Muller] Furthermore, I wanted to open this conversation in the pre-release area, but for some reason, I can read there but not open a new conversation.
[/quote]

That is because there is not a current released beta.

-Karen

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We look forward to giving you something new to learn to keep you busy. :slight_smile:

13

it is possible then to make a full screen real time analog clock in web 2.0? or 2d games with 30-60 fps?

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That makes sense :slight_smile:

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Thank you, Geoff, and sorry for sounding like a troublemaker.

[quote=479338:@Norman Palardy]Generally I’d agree but we already know that web 2.0 IS coming - soon (very soon)
I wouldnt tell someone to go buy a brand new car the day before I know a new model is being announced or the day before Apples scheduled to release a new one.[/quote]

That’s actually my point. We stopped building brand new stuff with Web Framework 1.0 for a quite a while now with one exception: if we have the necessary modules already in place (but often you don’t know upfront) and if it is a predictable small project (which is a tricky bet as well, as we all know). We are working a lot with NPOs and they are very often facing strict local deployment restrictions and only need smalls apps to collect anonymized data from their clients etc. (for registering refugees for instance). This is easy to achieve with Framework 1.0 and Graffiti Web to make it look good without implementing all the fancy stuff on your own (funny enough even NPO, these days, are requesting good looking web apps). And Xojo Web is for that purpose, from my perspective, much faster than building such an app with something relatively simple as vue.js for instance. A very few experts are then using a Xojo Desktop app for populating those first data entries with more sensitive data and running complex reports.

Many NPOs are interested in our products but most of them don’t want to cope with a large Desktop App as for all of them the deployment is difficult (utmost impossible) due to their limited rights (and knowledge) to install anything locally. And their infrastructure is very heterogeneous. A modern browser is often the only common denominator. On top of that NPOs often have little money for a first development but no money for future maintenance. We love the ease of Xojo Cloud, but achieved to run web apps on very cheap own virtual servers in our own data center, so we can absorb those monthly costs easily. Of course, we won’t buy a new car without it being officially released. And even then we will wait until others and ourselves have tested it to some degree. That’s why we are usually silently waiting, as many of us here are doing.

The COVID-19 tragedy is now changing the game for us, unfortunately, Our business will stop almost completely in the next days. We will have nothing to do. Running license agreements might not get paid if there are no resources left on the customer’s side to pay the bills. It is very predictable that no new projects will be kicked off. We might be lucky to do some consultancy via video conferencing, but it won’t be much.

Most likely we will survive as a company (depending on how many weeks/months the upcoming curfews will be in place) as we have savings in our accounts. But it is the first time in the past two decades that we have finally time to concentrate on investigating new stuff and not just playing the firefighters on daily projects. I only wanted to bring this urgency to the attention of the Xojo team, nothing more: As we are apparently close to the new car being released, it will help us start our investigations with a pre-release as soon as possible. And this time we will have time to contribute to the testing as well and not only reading the outcomes of the usual Xojo experts here and on other sides, like BKeeney’s briefs, etc.

Wish me luck, I’m now off trying to purchase some food. I had no luck yesterday. We are not facing any official shortages but too many people are in an unhealthy panic mode resulting in stupid hoardings. @All, stay healthy!

16

I would suppose that if the UI will indeed be different in Web 2.00, most of the logic can remain the same.

Granted, API 2.00 means some touches in syntax, but that should not be an issue for a long time user.

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What are NPOs?

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Non Profit Organizations (NPO) - in German: gemeinnützige Vereine, gGmbHs etc.

19

I am now confined, which should not be too much of an issue for development, as I am a single person company. But this morning I am facing another conundrum: seems DHL has also stopped operations. I could not get through on the phone.

I depend on it to send merchandise to the US. That could severely impair my business.

Well. Downloads still proceed as ever on my web sites, and hopefully on the Apple Store and Windows Store.

Too bad I just took a Paypal business lawn. Well, ■■■■ happens.

I should be able to survive the curfew, as I did the Internet bubble burst 20 years ago.

20

I don’t mind API 2.00 too much, as it will be a complete redesign anyhow. This doesn’t mean though that I do like all changes in API 2.0, but that’s how it is and it won’t change.

I fully agree and this is less a concern for us. But as we all (including) Xojo know that Web Framework 1.0 has its flaws. By nature, everyone has of course their own requirements and show stoppers etc. So regardless of COVID-19 I believe that many want to investigate if the new framework will be an acceptable tool for their purposes, or perhaps not. Take something simple as a login screen. If I remember correctly I believe this will be included out-of-the-box in the new framework. No one these days, should even think about publishing an app without user management and without an enforced secure SSL connection. Of course, we have our own modules and with Graffiti Web, we are making it to look nice. But compared to other Web Frameworks this is still a big task. Especially if you want it to work securly and not only look secure ;-).