$150 License Increase = Increased Roadmap Velocity

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  2. 3 days ago

    Anthony M

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    @Stephen P Interesting that we all tend to focus on the 'how' whereas the 'what' comes first - ie the principle of being open to paying more to get more in a predictable, (relatively) timely manner.

    Curious philosophy. What does paying more buy us? More developers to get it faster? Longer working hours to get it faster? At some point you have to stop throwing more resources at the problem and start looking at whether the existing resources are right for the task. There should never be a quid pro quo with quality. it should be expected.

    All I’m simply saying is that quality and predictability should not come with a higher price tag because no one pays for shoddy work to begin with. Custom features? Sure. I can see paying for that. Upgrading the product? Absolutely. But paying for better quality? No. When you pay for a product you expect to get what is advertised and if there is an issue you expect it to get addressed in a timely manner without having to pay to get it fixed quicker. If you buy a new TV and it’s defective you don’t pay more to get it fixed. You return it and get a non-defective one.

    Imagine taking your vehicle in for an oil change and the mechanic informing you that in order to get a non-defective oil filter, or one that filters all of the oil and not just 80% of it, you need to pay a 15% premium.

    Xojo already depends on its users to help debug the product and provide useful feedback on problems that should have never made it in to the final product. That’s ok. Most are willing to do so. But I would think that keeping the software stable and competitive would already be at the top of the list. Maybe I’m wrong but it makes sense to me.

  3. Rick A

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers (Brazil. GMT-3:00)

    No one should EVER to pay for a bug fix, or from some point on inserting bugs will be part of the package to be sold to increase the income.

  4. Rick A

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers (Brazil. GMT-3:00)

    You pay for extras. Something like a plugin to solve something only you have interest, and it must be bug free, for sure.

  5. Norman P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro great-white-software.com/blog

    -image-

  6. Stephen P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro
    Edited 3 days ago

    @Anthony M Curious philosophy. What does paying more buy us? More developers to get it faster? Longer working hours to get it faster? At some point you have to stop throwing more resources at the problem and start looking at whether the existing resources are right for the task.

    Once again, focussing on the how. Why try to solve it ? This thread is simply my way of (and maybe others) expression of interest of paying more to get the roadmap quicker and in a more predictable way.

    We can conjecture all we want. It is up to Xojo Inc to sort out the how. Having threads like this for a company is gold and testsment to Xojo's customer base.

    Once again we have a requirement and a way to fund it. The mechanism to implement that is up to the company.

  7. Anthony M

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    @Stephen P Once again, focussing on the how. Why try to solve it ? This thread is simply my way of (and maybe others) expression of interest of paying more to get the roadmap quicker and in a more predictable way.

    We can conjecture all we want. It is up to Xojo Inc to sort out the how. Having threads like this for a company is gold and testsment to Xojo's customer base.

    Once again we have a requirement and a way to fund it. The mechanism to implement that is up to the company.

    OK. Fair enough. I just want to make sure that if Xojo accepts your “what” that it doesn’t become a baseline for fixing bugs. Like @Norman P said, if you want to pay for a specific fix, more power to you but I don’t want a bump in all licensing costs just to get what we should have gotten to begin with.

    If the only bugs that get addressed in a timely manner are the ones that someone paid extra to fix and the rest are pushed to the back of the queue...where does that leave the rest of us who are facing showstoppers because we aren’t willing to pay more than what the software costs initially to fix the bugs that affect us? Like I said, it’s just a bad precedent to set.

    It just feels like Xojo is a state of constant beta release.

  8. Dave S

    Nov 8 San Diego, California USA

    Stephen.... sorry, but that isn't nor should it be how this type of relationship works. Xojo is a company, they sell a product, they have resources to create, maintain and update that product.

    We are customers, we decide if we wish to purchase this product, and do so if and only if we decide that this product is going to help us achieve a set of goals and is a cost effective and viable way to do so.

    But we are customers, we are not venture capitalist, it is not our place to raise funds to support this company, beyond paying the set price for the offered product.

    To me the issue is the direction the product seems to be taking is counter to the reasons I began using it nearly 13 years ago, and while many of the customers of Xojo have attempted to communicate to them where we think they strayed, and made suggestions to improve the latest offering, This is not "HOW", but more of "WHAT" and "WHY"....

    Xojo needs to find a direction, determine if their priority is to forget long established knowledgable customers and instead pursue clients with a level of programming expertise of a much lower level, or attempt to retain ALL their current customers and at the same time attempt to attract more. HOW they do this is for them to decide, if more capital is required, then it is up to them to decide HOW to raise it. If that means increasing license fees, that is their decision, but they need to balance that between improving the product more quickly or risk losing those same customers that they wish to retain, and not attract those who might find smaller, cheaper alternatives.

  9. Stephen P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro
    Edited 3 days ago

    Understand all comments. This is good intel for Xojo. Other firms would pay handsomely to have this level of insight.

    Re: bug comments - titke of thread was purposefully specific. Roadmap items.

  10. Sam R

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro, Third Party Store Hengchun, Pingtung, Taiwan

    IMHO; this one area where I do think that more man power can help. It appears to me that the current team wear many hats; having at least one person dedicated to a specific task and that task only, could actually improve the delivery time of bug fixes and new features. I'll leave changing the language to the side as for me personally this only adds hindrance, not help.

    I also think that Xojo could utilize the community much more, there's some great code out there written by us (Xojo users). Xojo could offer us a reward for the things that they need, to incorporate it into their product.

    Just my opinion.

  11. Scott C

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Vancouver, Canada
    Edited 3 days ago

    @Stephen P We can conjecture all we want. It is up to Xojo Inc to sort out the how. Having threads like this for a company is gold and testsment to Xojo's customer base.

    Once again we have a requirement and a way to fund it. The mechanism to implement that is up to the company.

    I whole heatedly support your enthusiasm Stephen, but product pricing, as the old saying goes - is based on "what the market can bear".

    Obviously Geoff is an accomplished business person and must know what he needs verses what resources he needs to succeed. I'm sure there are many factors being weighed continuously to keep a ship like Xojo afloat, let alone how to make it move faster.

    As a former business owner myself, fiddling with the license costs could unintentionally rock that boat. I'm speaking of myself here only, of course.

    On the other hand, if a bump in cash flow would help scrape the barnacles off the boat a little more thoroughly - I wouldn't be adverse to say, paying $ 400 or 500 for a really nice baseball jacket with the Xojo logo and such.

    Some premium Xojo swag (shoulder bags, backpacks, hats, t-shirts, laptop stickers, etc.) could potentially go a long way to funding all sorts of things, plus help to promote the product in general. That's just a guess of course, but I'd be up for it.

    Just my 3₵ (Canadian exchange, eh).

  12. Stephen P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    I whole heatedly support your enthusiasm Stephen, but product pricing, as the old saying goes - is based on "what the market can bear".

    Exactly. My personal contention is that I can bear more cost - whatever form it takes - to accelerate the roadmap.

  13. Norman P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro great-white-software.com/blog

    @Stephen P Exactly. My personal contention is that I can bear more cost - whatever form it takes - to accelerate the roadmap.

    Several of us have said that here and on other blogs etc
    My last post , which was removed because it was apparently off topic, pointed you to my blog with a post saying pretty much exactly this
    I wont try to repost that link for fear THIS post gets deemed to also be off topic because it points you there

  14. Mark C

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers Spain 03170
    Edited 3 days ago

    answering the question, no.

    why would anyone assume that an increase in licence cost would make anything change.

    that would seem to assume that the reason for not fixing bugs, not listening to users concerns, not updating previous versions(ie API 1 in 19r1) or not adding new features, is only due to the cost of the licence.

    I do not believe the cost of the licence has ever been a factor in changing the roadmap, or any other issue mentioned above, but if that is true, it is not something ever intimated by the company its self (obviously).

    I would like to believe the roadmap is based on a solid strategy which understands the market and user base requirements......

    but what appears to be going on (to me, my opinion only) is android and API2, when perhaps many people (who express an opinion on this public forum) want is top quality iOS, web and API1 bug fixes and feature additions.

    I have no interest in android(which I know is completely irrelevant), the few apps I make in android are done with a very good BASIC language compiler, none of the apps pay anything after their creation, I have found its impossible to make money from an android app unless its to support a bit of hardware I make, in my limited experience android is not worth more than the 90€ I paid for a two year update subscription to the other compiler, I hope the android version in Xojo is as fully complete and easy to use, debug and has the same support and cost that the other compiler is able to afford.
    if it is as incomplete as the iOS version we have now it might be less welcomed than other offerings the are well matured.
    the iOS version is 299$ and appears to be non optimal, I hope the android version is absolutely feature perfect, has no need for any third party plugins and is provided free licence in the same way raspberry pi is, as no one will pay for that licence either.

    As for API2, I am unable to be at this time positive.

    for me I would like to pay the same (and not inexpensive) cost of a PRO licence which has a really stable Mac, Linux, Pi, win, web iOS and console platforms all using API1 with the option of using API2(based on OS target) where it is absolutely necessary due to OS requirements, and that being a selectable choice, not forcing depreciations to be churned out or having no choice about changing event names.

  15. Scott C

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Vancouver, Canada

    Myself personally, am not an Android fan. But professionally, if I want to build (or someone wants a contractor to build them) a custom iOS app using Xojo - an Android version should just follow with little extra effort. This reason alone justifies Xojo's efforts in that direction.

    Obviously Xojo and iOS is not without merit, e.g., Packr @ 650,000 downloads.

    With patience, I see Android with Xojo API 2.0 succeeding just as well as iOS, or better. The future looks bright to me.

  16. Stephen P

    Nov 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    answering the question, no.

    why would anyone assume that an increase in licence cost would make anything change.

    that would seem to assume that the reason for not fixing bugs, not listening to users concerns, not updating previous versions

    Mark - if you read the title it says increased cost = increased velocity through roadmap. No assumption made with the question whatsoever. One results in the other. The question was very specific. Once again don't concern yourself with the 'how'.

    Also no mention in my question is made to bugs. Roadmap was (is) the focus.

  17. Michel B

    Nov 9 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro RubberViews.com
    Edited 3 days ago

    @Scott C Myself personally, am not an Android fan. But professionally, if I want to build (or someone wants a contractor to build them) a custom iOS app using Xojo - an Android version should just follow with little extra effort. This reason alone justifies Xojo's efforts in that direction.

    Indeed, whenever the topic comes, I always see posts such as 'I am not interested in Android'. As if Xojo should cater only to these individuals.

    Some of us may develop only personally, but others like me pay the rent selling software to the public. Truth is, now, Android alone represents already the same market share as Windows. And growing.
    https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share

    On Amazon, mobile users represent over 50% of buyers.

    We cannot ignore the mobile trend. Look around you. More and more people use their phone everyday, doing everything on it.

    Dave Sisemore quite rightly reminds us that in the end, Xojo sells a software product, just like most of us professionals. Just like I must move my popular apps to Android and iOS, Xojo's future depends on it's ability to satisfy the growing mobile market.

    Actually, they are even kind of late to the party.

  18. Sascha S

    Nov 9 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Germany, Lower Saxonary

    @Stephen P Any supporters ?

    No. Not here.

  19. 2 days ago

    Derek T

    Nov 9 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Minneapolis

    I'm happy spending $699 every 5 years. My last pro license was in 2015 and web 2.0 will press me to buy another.

    I do not write software for a living though, xojo is my duct tape to problems in an IT business.

  20. yesterday

    If Xojo does what you propose, increasing the license with 150 USD, then instead of doing 30% of my development in Snaky, I will do ALL my projects in Snaky. It is very unlikely I will continue developing in Xojo when it remains so buggy as it is now.

    Like others mentioned already, Xojo is a closed proprietary language. Together with the hugh amount of bugs, that is its greatest weakness in a world where the mainstream languages are free.

    You asked for an opinion, I gave you now my personal opinion.

    For your information, "Snaky" is an alias for a competing free mainstream development environment. But we are not allowed to mention or talk about the competition.

    Chris

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