To Xojo or not to Xojo?

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  2. 6 days ago

    Karen A

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers

    @Gavin S Again, it’s patently obvious they’re understaffed.

    The most likely reason for that is concerning, and being understaffed will likely exacerbate it.

    - Karen

  3. Michel B

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro RubberViews.com

    Quick calculus : 50 pros get the $699 license = $34,950

    That represents only 353 citizen developers with a $90 lite license.

    At one point, Xojo claimed to have 8,000 or so users. I bet you an enormous amount of them are not buying the Pro license...

  4. James D

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Europe (Switzerland)

    @Michel B Quick calculus : 50 pros get the $699 license = $34,950

    That represents only 353 citizen developers with a $90 lite license.

    At one point, Xojo claimed to have 8,000 or so users. I bet you an enormous amount of them are not buying the Pro license...

    They’d have bust a while ago based on your figures.....

  5. Karen A

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers
    Edited 6 days ago

    Outside of a few thing like source control and maybe some 'missing' modern language features, I don't think the needs of a Citizen Developer and a consultant type pro (one who does custom software vs one who makes a living selling apps) differ every much... I suspect most of the "citizen developers" are writing apps for use at work so need the same type of things.

    RAD is RAD and X-Platform RAD (with minimal platform behavioral differenced WITHIN Xojo) is what we all want ... I know I want to solve MY problem rather worry about declares or have to write my own controls. Yes I can do those things but when there is too much of that one starts to wonder if there are not better more RAD options available.

    BTW I suspect there are a Lot of "Citizen Developers with" X-Platform desktop at $300 , as after all there are other option that better support any particular OS... X-Platform is Xojo's niche.

    - Karen

  6. Karen A

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers

    @Dave K Maybe this is all a calculated decision and once the API 2.0 dust settles down, Xojo counts on the pro-users still being there and then the Xojo team will give us exactly those things you mention above.

    But, being a citizen developer myself and absolutely unwilling to write my own reports modules or subclass a listbox to make a grid control on my own, I won't be renewing Xojo (I'm on 2017r1) until I see that the third-party market is robustly providing these and other things in API 2.0 compatible versions.

    Maybe over the holidays I SHOULD update my Mergable Cell Listbox to API 2! ;)

    - karen

  7. Ivan T

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers
    Edited 6 days ago

    @Dave K Maybe this is all a calculated decision and once the API 2.0 dust settles down, Xojo counts on the pro-users still being there and then the Xojo team will give us exactly those things you mention above.

    This is the secret, it was genious to adopt this pseudo rapid release model, you never have a final working product and you are constantly purchasing an eternal beta with little improvements and lots of things broken, allways expecting that the next release will fix the problems without breaking more things or have more RAD features or finally have the feature that was anounced 2, 3 o 4 years before. At least for me, it is time to let the hope aside and be realistic.

    @Karen A BTW I suspect there are a Lot of "Citizen Developers with" X-Platform desktop at $300 , as after all there are other option that better support any particular OS... X-Platform is Xojo's niche.

    I consider me a pro and have a dektop. ios is not worth it, web it is pretty much the same as 2017, so why pay a Pro? to have more points to spend on ignored bugs? :P

    https://www.bkeeneybriefs.com/2019/11/im-not-xojos-target-audience-is-anyone/

    This is agreat blog post, and for many years i have seen the same complains in the forum and outside, this are not going away, but growing every release. Maybe xojo look at them as just attacks or negativity, instead of looking at them as the opinion of the comunity. If the client is not getting what they need/want, sooner o later they are going to loose the hope of a better product (better for them, not better why the company says so) and going to look elsewere.

  8. Sam R

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro, Third Party Store Hengchun, Pingtung, Taiwan

    Just to put another perspective on things; one thing that I’ve always hated about another language is the constant changes to said language and the incompatibilites this brings. Xcode 11 cannot open Swift 3.x files. Developers must use an older Xcode, covert to the code at least Swift 4.x; then they can open it in Xcode 11 and convert it Swift 5.x. Fffssss....

    I’m not saying this to negate how others feel about the language changes made to Xojo 2019r2.x; but to illustrate that while we may not see any benefit in these changes; at least we don’t have to put up with the crap that some other tools suffer from.

    For a while now, Xojo has tried to update the language to suit different trends. For me personally; I’d rather see them invest in keeping up with current technologies, provide more access to underline objects and maybe adding incremental additions to the language slowly.

    The issues with Xojo on Catalina, just illustrate how behind they are in terms of keeping up with Apple, this is not a criticism as it’s hard to keep up with Apple; but it’s something thats only going to get worse over time. We rely on Xojo to make our apps.

  9. Paulo V

    Nov 6 Porto Alegre, Brasil

    @Karen A While I have used 4 or 5 other languages in my life, I have used nothing but RB/RS/Xojo for the last 18+ years
    and I hate all that experience to go to waste and don't want to learn another ... I want Xojo inc to give me a reason to want to renew ... but instead they just seem to keep giving me reasons not to.

    -Karen

    +1

  10. Dave S

    Nov 6 San Diego, California USA

    @Sam R Xcode 11 cannot open Swift 3.x files

    While that is partially true.... All you have to do is change one item in the project manifest and Xcode will open and convert the code for you... And yes some manual intervention is usually required, but unlike Xojo, Xcode points out every required line, and 90% of the time suggests what the change should be. So having older versions of Swift is not a requirement....

    Note : I have been working with Swift since 1.0

  11. Brandon W

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    I guess I am in an alternate reality. I don't mind the changes introduced with API2 and I see a long term benefit. My company relies on Xojo for Desktop, Console and Web apps that run on Windows and Macs. We use Einhugur plugins, MBS and a few Graffitti Suite controls. We have a ton of code that is shared between the apps. When R2 came out, we switched over and nothing... I mean nothing bad happened. Literally, we opened the projects, recompiled and everything worked.

    The problem I see with API 2 is that it has made life difficult for some of the most loyal, long term, professional Xojo users. I'm hoping an update to Xojo in the immediate time frame can solve these problems.

  12. Ivan T

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers

    @Sam R Just to put another perspective on things; one thing that I’ve always hated about another language is the constant changes to said language and the incompatibilites this brings. Xcode 11 cannot open Swift 3.x files. Developers must use an older Xcode, covert to the code at least Swift 4.x; then they can open it in Xcode 11 and convert it Swift 5.x. Fffssss....

    But at least in almost every other tool you have that certainty. This is tool version X and works with files from versions Y and Z. Most of them have an option to migrate/update an old proyect to the new format. But with this pseudo rapid release system it is a real nightmare to know what works where and now on like an eternal beta quality. But, it looks worse now on, with all the mess with mixing up "api levels".

  13. Scott C

    Nov 6 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Vancouver, Canada

    FWIW, I see Xojo as a life line to sanity. Sure, it's not perfect, but what language and/or platform is?

    I've known about RB/Xojo going back almost 20 years, from a colleague, but didn't buy my first Xojo license until about 4 years ago. I bought a license because I wanted a mental break from the other kinds of programming I do for a living (I love programming). I had a gas learning Xojo at first, but had to drop it for a while (and let my subscription lapse) because of some crazy work demands and some unexpected health problems.

    Now I'm back again and I couldn't be happier learning Xojo again, and I'm also very happy about API 2.0 and where it's going.

    I know many are concerned about their livelihoods and how to keep their Xojo-dependent businesses running and the income flowing. I can sympathize because I've been there too.

    I've been a professional developer almost 25 years. Except for the last 2.5 years, I was an independent contractor that whole time, just like many of you. Always rushing from one gig to the next, trying to support a family of six, while also trying to expand my knowledge to get more capabilities from my tool sets.

    I've gone through at least a dozen languages (if you include SQL, markup syntaxes & scripting) in those 25 years. And guess what...? All modern languages are a horror show! And they are all just getting worse. Each one more complicated, more buggy, multiple levels of dependency hells, feature competitive (without the usefulness of similar behaviors), poor documentation, fragmented communities, non-existent support, more costly, etc. I'm turning 58 tomorrow and I don't need this kind of stress in my life anymore.

    Which is why I see Xojo as a harbour of sanity.

    Xojo offers:

    • One IDE for all the types of projects it supports.
    • The IDE comes with a ton of starter example projects.
    • One huge comprehensive community forum, with a seemingly endless supply of code (& app) examples and supportive members.
    • One source for well organized documentation.
    • An integrated Feedback/Feature request system.
    • A diverse 3rd Party control market.
    • Run by a company that is not a faceless monolithic propaganda machine.

    Sure, there are areas in need of improvement. Sometimes Team Xojo may miss the mark on some things...

    But I'll tell you (keeping in mind I've spent the majority of the last 25 years in other languages) you won't find another development tool that covers as much ground as Xojo does right now - all in one nice tidy, sane pocket.

    And if Xojo can pull off delivering Android, then Web 2.0 and iOS with API 2.0... wow, there will be nothing that can compete with it (without a mind-bending learning curve with extra doses of stress & anxiety).

    Sure, that Xojo 2.0 future is still a ways away. But for myself, I'm willing to have patience, because I can at the moment (which makes me luckier than most I sure). But what the heck, I KNOW the alternatives are nasty... So I'm going to stick around, support Xojo and see what happens. I hope everyone else can too.

    Note: before revisiting Xojo earlier this year, I was seriously considering quitting this industry and getting a job at like Homedepot or something. I'm glad I didn't.

    All the best to Team Xojo!

  14. I have no dog in this race, as Xojo only ever suited my needs once back in 2000-and-something and I could never get the IDE to run well enough under Linux after that. I just wanted to quote Michel's fantastic sentence :

    @Michel Bujardet a dogmatic exercise in programming pedantry, with no concern whatsoever for users

    and say that I used that this morning to great effect in a conversation with a client.

    Thank you, Michel.

  15. Javier M

    Nov 7 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro, Third Party Store AprendeXojo - Europe, Spain

    As many, many, many of us, I wear several "Hats" in my day to day business, and I still (and continue) use and recommend Xojo because:

    As contractor

    — Several of my clients want to use a particular Release of Xojo (even before this particular 2019r1 / 2019r2 "thing")… and I can do that. Even maintaining the code base and extend the solution features as they need them.
    — In some cases, a solution devoted to a particular target (for instance Linux), needs to be deployed under Windows in a rush… and I can do that simply clicking on a button.
    — Many of my clients want they solution to behave and look exactly the same under macOS and Windows, and thanks to Xojo I can do that sharing maybe 90% or more of the code base.
    — In other cases (rare, but they still are there), some demand deployments as 32 bits… and I can do that simply clicking on a button, without changing a comma.
    — Other are more budget-concerned for a particular project, and Xojo allows me to do more in less time: better for my client, and better for me too.
    — Even new clients have "long term" vision, and in this case THEY demand that they projects are created using the new API… and, of course, I can do that too.

    As provider

    — Is up to me to update my existing stuff if I want it to be available to Xojo 2019r2 users, so they can buy it; and I can do that.
    — Is up to me to maintain my existing stuff so it is still available to buy by pre-Xojo 2019r2 users, and I can do that too.

    As Xojo Trainer

    — Is up to my to update my existing stuff if I want it to be "usable" by Xojo 2019r2 users under API 2.0.
    — Of course, I prepare new stuff only for API 2.0.

    Lessons learned since I code

    No matter the programming language / development environment you want to talk:

    All languages and development environments evolve, all of them are not perfect, always would wanted to have the same kind of UI components I was used to in other environments, but most of the times I was able to implement the same thing using another focus on the problem to solve (this may be the same kind of "issue" that anyone can have when wants to "translate" code from one language to another one… most of the times, not the best approach), several third-party components/libraries/frameworks disappear from time to time (in any development environment out there), other components/libraries/frameworks arrive… Even in some cases (I'm looking at you, Apple), the arrival of a new Operating System version implies that I'm forced to install a new version of the development toolset and that, most of the times, implies dealing with lots of compatibility / portability issues/bugs/etc.

    There is always new things to learn, change, improve. Everyone can decide when to stop in this walk.

    I LOVE Xojo, because:

    — I use the same IDE no matter the target I want / need to deploy to.
    — I can cross-debug my code on Windows / Linux from my Mac.
    — I can use the same language for creating apps / solutions on Desktop / Web / iOS… and I bet this will be even better in the future.
    — I can create and deploy, and even maintain and grow my apps in less time when compared with other approaches.
    — Xojo forum is full of nice and seasoned developers that doesn't hesitate to help others, no matter if they are just newcomers or not.
    — All the staff at Xojo is really approachable, and they don't hesitate to reply questions (In my experience, never seen before with that quality of humility and caring).
    — Time to market is fast, really fast; and that means a better ROI.

  16. Joost R

    Nov 7 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro The Netherlands

    I think, with this plea of Javier, it's a good moment to lock this long long thread now. (just my thought)

  17. James B

    Nov 7 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    Maybe I can get in under the wire, before this thread is locked. I subscribe to Xojo pro and expect to continue to do so indefinitely, even though my usage is sporadic. I go back and forth between coding and writing and, at this point, have not used it for months. When I do use it, however, I use it intensely and sweat every pixel. I use it because, better than anything else I know, Xojo buffers me from the churn at apple and Microsoft. I grant that they have not been able to keep up in this age of security chaos, but in and out over the decades (my first real basic cd is dated October 1998) they have exceeded my expectations. They deserve my support through the ups and downs.

    I probably have ten thousand depreciations waiting for me when I return, but I will deal with them.

    As a side note, those of us that deal with deep learning have no problem at all “adding rows” to matrices. That is literally all we use them for. The fact that I manipulate those (huge) matrices with a plug-in from a physics professor is amusing.

  18. Dana B

    Nov 7 Xojo Inc Austin, Texas
    Edited 6 days ago

    The purpose of this forum is to help people be productive with Xojo. I'm locking this thread because it is not conducive to productivity. If anyone has any specific issue they wish to discuss with us - we are here, write us at hello@xojo.com.

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