UI Design - Undo/Reload button conundrum

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  2. 6 weeks ago

    Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia

    Yep, but Jeff's icon indicates anti-clockwise (undo).

    I think I need a more "indeterminate" icon that can represent both.

  3. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303

    I think I need a more "indeterminate" icon that can represent both.

    Undo is an "undo this action" action. Reload is an "update the data". You can't represent both with similar symbols, they are completely different actions. It sounds like you have them on the same button, which is even worse.

    The only case in which it would be appropriate would be if undo button was to undo the reload the data action. At which point the user has stagnant data, which I would assume your app doesn't do...?

  4. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    Well, it sort of is like stagnant data.

    CTRL+Red Button reloads the original unedited data. (easier that closing and opening the file again). Selecting the button without CTRL simply undoes the last edit made to the graph.

    To me the function is fine, but the representation is not.

    IMPORTANTLY, any saved changes made to the graph are never finite. The user can ALWAYS reload the original graph data. It's a safety thing.

  5. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303

    Ah, okay. If the undo is specifically related to the reload data then a keydown alternate for undo and swapping the symbology may work for this case. If the undo is only for the reload data then you could use the same icon mirrored as well. Be sure it's documented somewhere :)

  6. brian f

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Chilly California

    @Tim P Ah, okay. If the undo is specifically related to the reload data then a keydown alternate for undo and swapping the symbology may work for this case. If the undo is only for the reload data then you could use the same icon mirrored as well. Be sure it's documented somewhere :)

    What about redoing the undo after a refresh? :P

  7. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303

    @brian f What about redoing the undo after a refresh? :P

    That's up to him, he said he didn't want to add another button.

  8. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    Yeah, it's a tricky one.

    I know I've gone about this in an "arrrse-about" manner, but it's the way I wanted to do things from the very beginning.

    It was essential that the "original" data cannot be lost.

    So when the user creates the graph, it is saved in a "secret" location :). No filename is required either, it has a time/date stamp. The user can edit the graph willy nilly, it has one level of undo. If they screw up, the the original can be re-loaded. The original data is NEVER changed or lost. This relieves the user from having to think about making a backup. Simple, Easy.

    The ICON that represents that, is in question. Maybe something more ambivalent? There must be a more appropriate icon, and that's what I'm asking here.

  9. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303

    Perhaps your terminology is slightly off?

    Does this accurately describe the functionality?
    [Anti-clockwise] Revert to original data
    [Clockwise] Reload newest data

    If there are no other options, I think the symbology is correct.

  10. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia

    @Tim P That's up to him, he said he didn't want to add another button.

    And I won't be adding another button.

    I go by this philosophy: Every and any step introduced into a procedure or system, programming or otherwise, introduces another potential point of failure, just by being there.

    So best be careful about the steps, and try to drill down into what is only "necessary" to make that system work effectively and efficiently. For the User or the Developer.

  11. Jeff T

    Jan 8 Midlands of England, Europe

    Whats the difference between 'reload newest data' and 'load data'?
    Still feels like a fundamental concept issue here.

    On the one hand you have the function 'discard the settings changes'
    And at any time 'refresh the data based on what the settings look like NOW' (which could be the originals)
    The user doesn't know you kept a sneaky copy of 'what it looked like with the original data'

    At any time , you can refresh the data based on the settings I can see
    And 'put the settings back the way they way' (plus possibly refresh the data based on the settings)

    Those actions don't belong on one button.
    It's understandable, but - I cant help feeling you are justifying this because you don't have much screen estate and you don't want to lay out the screen again.

    A live refresh solves the problem.
    When a setting is amended, refresh the graph.
    If the settings are reverted, refresh the graph.
    So you only need a 'revert' button

    (If you don't want to refresh on every keystroke, use a timer set to 1/2 a second, and don't refresh if no changes have been made)

  12. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia

    @Jeff T . . . I cant help feeling you are justifying this because you don't have much screen estate and you don't want to lay out the screen again . . .

    Yeah, there is a certain amount of truth to that. But I do have enough screen estate:

    -image-

    Down the right hand side are the graph editing icons. It's not finalised, and I made sure to leave space for other potential un-forseen icons.

    Perhaps this is the "un-forseen" case where I need to add another icon. Perhaps I shouldn't have said "And I won't be adding another button." Seems like adding another button may be the best way forward afterall.

    I don't want them both red though - or should they look the same except one in a mirror image. Complications, complications perhaps. Clarity is best.

  13. Jeff T

    Jan 8 Midlands of England, Europe

    If you have a button to reset the settings, it belongs (on the left?) where the settings are.
    'refresh the graph' belongs on the right next to the graph

  14. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    From that screenshot, I would assume the graph should always represent the data with no refresh necessary. The undo/redo/reload actions should be on the data editor.

    Edit: Possibly a label on the graph to indicate whether it's prediction data or the original data.
    Edit 2: You'd then be able to remove the reload button, giving you extra space for more unforeseen buttons.

  15. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    I'll try to explain better. This shows the "original" recorded graph in it's "un-trimmed" state:

    -image-

    It's a simple x/y graph. It has to be manually trimmed (topped & tailed ie. left/right, at the point of interest). It's not a video or audio file. Simple trimming using the available tools. Auto-Trim would be good. Leave a space for that later (version 2.0).

    Something important that I forgot to mention is that I'm Left Handed and also somewhat ambidextrous. Therefore (seriously), when I look at the red icon in the graph editing panel as it is now, I think UNDO. But if I think about a clock, then of course it's not correct. Then it means I have to think about it.

    So even if I had 2 buttons (undo and re-load), I would not be sure which was which.

  16. Tim H

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers Portland, OR USA

    From a quick read of this thread, it sounds like you have "Undo" and "Undo All", in which case an accelerator key with Undo would be appropriate. However, in either case, the arrow should be counter-clockwise. Just my 2c.

  17. Tim P

    Jan 8 Pre-Release Testers feedback://46303

    Therefore (seriously), when I look at the red icon in the graph editing panel as it is now, I think UNDO. But if I think about a clock, then of course it's not correct. Then it means I have to think about it.

    Not that I'm diagnosing you, but dyslexics may also suffer from a similar issue, and you are not alone. If we can find a way to remove that symbol from the graph area, I think that would improve the user experience.

    Would you be able to record a video of average usage of these features? The hard part about UI and UX design is that it's specific to how an app is used. I don't think we're understanding how the features are used well enough to make the best recommendations for this software.

    The recommendations Jeff and I are making are heavily influenced by a data to graph paradigm. With this design paradigm, it's inappropriate for a graph to have an undo button as the undo action applies to the data.

  18. Jeff T

    Jan 8 Midlands of England, Europe

    Im going to regret asking...
    What does RESET do, then?

  19. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    @Tim P Not that I'm diagnosing you, but dyslexics may also suffer from a similar issue, and you are not alone. If we can find a way to remove that symbol from the graph area, I think that would improve the user experience.

    Would you be able to record a video of average usage of these features? The hard part about UI and UX design is that it's specific to how an app is used. I don't think we're understanding how the features are used well enough to make the best recommendations for this software.

    The recommendations Jeff and I are making are heavily influenced by a data to graph paradigm. With this design paradigm, it's inappropriate for a graph to have an undo button as the undo action applies to the data.

    That is bizarre and a great idea Tim. Would you believe, I've spent a good deals worth of today looking at video editing software solution for the purpose to create a video recording and simply lay over text etc. I have IceCream Recorder. It's great and perfect to my requirements for screen capture.

    So, then I have to look for software to make a "composite", ie. add title, audio etc. DaVinci Resolve looks great, I'm half-way there having used Adobe Premiere. Unfortunately DR doesn't work on Win7. I'll need to decide which way to go.

  20. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia

    @Jeff T Im going to regret asking...
    What does RESET do, then?

    What's to regret?

    RESET simply resets the entire application to the defaults as if you quit, then restarted. Perfectly Simple. Saves time.

    That's why the button is located in the top right corner coloured purple, so as not to be confused with anything else.

    . . . Ummm . . . Oh Dear . . . what have I done? . . . :)

  21. Steve K

    Jan 8 Melbourne, Australia
    Edited 6 weeks ago

    @Tim H From a quick read of this thread, it sounds like you have "Undo" and "Undo All", in which case an accelerator key with Undo would be appropriate. However, in either case, the arrow should be counter-clockwise. Just my 2c.

    Maybe I've come almost half full circle (180deg mirrored). Metaphorically and in reality.

    -image-

    Yep, given all possible solutions, simply changing the icon to the anti-clockwise version is the best and simplest way. UNDO/RELOAD same sort of thing. No need to change the code either. No need for an extra icon/button.

    Steve Kelepouris = Sometimes "Can't see the forest for the trees, Dumb dumb dumb". . . . .

    I would not have resolved this without going through this process. Thankyou to everyone.

    Of course my software solution is unconventional and lacks basic standards for good design, but Xojo made me do it :).

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