Visual Studio as an IDE for XOJO

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  2. 2 weeks ago

    Trig C

    May 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Brisbane, Australia
    Edited 2 weeks ago

    @Dave S Please educate me then.... I tested exactly that scenario before I posted what I did..... And the changes in one project did not reflect in the other.

    Hi Dave,

    I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you but I just tested again with no issue. I created a new app, imported a module used in my main project, right clicked the module and chose make external then saved it again to the original location, I then went back to my main app, made a change in the module and this change was visible in the test app. Works fine for me for both modules and classes that I like to share between projects. The module or class must be external in both projects. The only limitation is that the external module can't have classes inside it. To get around this just move the classes outside of the module then make the classes external as well..

    Regards

    TC

    PS. If you're on a Mac I could FaceTime you then share my screen so you could see.

  3. Julian M

    May 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro San Francisco Bay Area

    The only limitation is that the external module can't have classes inside it. To get around this just move the classes outside of the module then make the classes external as well..

    Having classes as part of the module seems like kind of the point of using modules. In order to get the benefits of namespaces the classes need to be in the modules. If I want to share a module I want my classes to come along. Manually adding 100's of classes as external is a pain unless they are in modules as you have to keep track each time a class is added.

    I raised this issue years ago and never got any traction. Again these are things that don't affect solo or hobbyists as much. When working on a team or with multiple projects that share code it becomes more of an issue.

  4. Trig C

    May 12 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Brisbane, Australia
    Edited 2 weeks ago

    @Julian M Having classes as part of the module seems like kind of the point of using modules. In order to get the benefits of namespaces the classes need to be in the modules. If I want to share a module I want my classes to come along. Manually adding 100's of classes as external is a pain unless they are in modules as you have to keep track each time a class is added.

    Hi Julian,

    I tend to use modules as a place to share code between projects or segments of larger projects which may be split apart after prototyping. In my style of work I don't have the need for a lot of classes, so a few really isn't that painful. I just group the different sections in folders within the IDE to tidy things up.

    TC

  5. Beatrix W

    May 13 Pre-Release Testers Europe (Germany)

    @Dave S : you need to make sure to have only one project open. I work this way all the time as I find the text format not very useful for sharing code between projects.

  6. Michael D

    May 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    In my latest project, I find myself needing to use a lot of Xojo and JavaScript. Right now I'm doing Xojo in Xojo, and Javascript in BBEdit and using Safari (or IE11) developer mode for debugging.

    There's no way to edit JavaScript inside Xojo (or conversely, to edit Xojo in BBEdit) is there? Having to mentally switch between two editors is frustrating.

  7. Anthony M

    May 13 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro

    @Michel B Before 2000, I used Visual Basic, quite naturally coming from QuickBasic.

    Then I switched to Real Basic in 2001. When I went to the Mac App Store in 2013, I fetched a project from 2002 in Xojo, and was able to load it unchanged.

    VB sources from the same period are absolutely impossible to use. That is a HUGE problem I don't have with Xojo.

    With VS, source folders are a cumbersome and overblown mess where a mother cat would not be able find her kitten. In Xojo, even in XML, I can find things easily.

    It is amazing how regularly in this forum, there are people coming from other environments who cannot seem to accept the Xojo philosophy, and want to make it something else.

    I prefer Xojo for many reasons, and would not appreciate it becoming a satellite of VS.

    BTW, Xojo is cross platform, and why did not the OP look into XCode instead ?

    Quite simply, while the Xojo framework is not bad, the Xojo IDE is an embarrassment, particularly on the Windows platform. I use it for cross-platform and web application development but spend 70% of my time in VS (Windows is my main platform) and I can say with confidence that the VS IDE is worlds better in terms of stability, ease of use and functionality. i don’t think the OP was saying that the Xojo philosophy should be changed to that of VS, just that the VS IDE would make a great Xojo editor and I completely agree.

    To take it a step further, I would not be offended at all if Xojo didn’t “eat their own dog food” and were to create the IDE for Windows in .NET, one for Mac in Xcode and one for Linux in QT. Heck, it wouldn’t even bother me if they used native controls for each platform requiring me to keep different code bases for each like B4X does. As it is, I have to use so many #Target statements just to make the layout acceptable for each platform for which I compile because if I don’t what looks good on Mac looks off on Windows and vice versa.

    For an IDE that has been around since the 90’s I cannot believe how bad the current 2018r1 version is. It seems that with every release Xojo takes three steps forward and two steps back in terms of usability and stability. When you look at the number of bugs (Feedback reports) that have gone unfixed for years or the number of regressions that appear in each new release it makes one wonder why Xojo doesn’t stop adding features until the get the current framework and IDE stabilized. It’s a good concept and a great philosophy but the implementation needs a lot of work. I like it, I use it and will continue to renew my license but it definitely needs an overhaul.

    TL;DR: Improve useability by allowing VS (Code) to be used as an editor for Xojo code until the current IDE is fixed and (mostly) bug free or remake the editor in each platform’s native languages to take advantage of the native libraries available to each.

  8. Dirk C

    May 14 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Belgium, Zedelgem

    I wasn't going to say anything, but I sorta feel I have to now.
    We use the Xojo IDE full time every day in a team with 6 Xojo developers.
    We share code between 7 different projects that are placed in a subversion repository for our team.
    I won't say that the Xojo IDE is perfect, but it does the job for us.
    I've also done work in other editors (VS, VS CODE, ATOM, BBEdit, Eclipse,...) and can't say any of them are perfect.
    We've seen several iterations of the Xojo IDE over the years, and Xojo is aware of the fact that things can be improved.
    I'd rather wait for them to improve the Xojo IDE than for them having to support another IDE.
    The Xojo team is a small team and they need to use their resources where it will improve the language/ide the most.
    They put in an incredible amount of work for such a small team and my personal opinion is that moving to support another IDE would not provide us with the best return on investment for their invested time.
    That's my 2 cents.

  9. Michel B

    May 14 Pre-Release Testers RubberViews.com
    Edited 2 weeks ago

    That poor IDE has been dissed by innumerable number of people for the most diverse reasons. Some because they could not stomach anything but the older Real Basic IDE. Some others because they have a pet editor the started with, and simply got habits difficult to break and could not find their marks in the current Xojo IDE.

    It's like cars. If one starts with a GM, it becomes very difficult to get accustomed to Ford. And the other way around. Not to mention those who hate anything new.

    What's good about this forum is that it lets people vent ;)

  10. Joost R

    May 14 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro The Netherlands

    @Michel B What's good about this forum is that it lets people vent ;)

    Giving air to a frustration makes it easier to deal coop with it

  11. Joost R

    May 14 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro The Netherlands

    @Dirk C They put in an incredible amount of work for such a small team and my personal opinion is that moving to support another IDE would not provide us with the best return on investment for their invested time.

    I also prefer having everything work technically well and bugfree above being fancy. It's our deliverables that matter.

  12. Anthony M

    May 14 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro
    Edited 2 weeks ago

    @Dirk C The truth is, I agree with you. I don’t think Xojo should put any effort into supporting VS Code as an editor, it’s just a pipe dream. However, I also don’t think Xojo should continue to add platforms such as Android and Web 2.0 until they get the rest of it working correctly. Unless you’ve ever encountered a show-stopping bug it’s hard to sympathize with the “negative nellys” in the group but when you’re having to rewrite or change your code at every other turn just to work around a bug you start to feel the pain of the rest of us.

    @Michael Bujardet It has nothing to do with preferring the old Realbasic IDE (I wasn’t a fan of it either) or having a pet IDE that we like better than Xojo’s IDE. It’s about stability, pure and simple. And your analogy to cars is not on point. If someone likes GM over Ford or Dodge or whatever but GM continues to produce new models with engine problems or flaws in the design don’t you think they would complain and insist on them fixing the issue or start looking for a different manufacturer without these problems? What’s wrong with insisting that Xojo put more resources into fixing the existing broken pieces rather that adding new pieces? It’s not venting, it’s holding the maker responsible for producing a good, working product.

    It’s easy to assume that all of us complainers do so out of nepotism (i like this product or that product better so let’s support it in Xojo) but the truth is, we expect better from a team that has as much talent as the Xojo development team has. Personally, I don’t dislike the Xojo IDE as a whole but the poor performance and having to reboot every so often to stabilize is beyond frustrating. Please, try to see the complaints and requests for what they are...a call to execellence by the people who buy the product and not unfounded whining. We won’t accept sub-par products from hardware manufacturers so why do we tend to look the other way with software developers? I admit, it baffles me.

  13. Edited 2 weeks ago

    @Julian M VS is now cross platform, which is why I originally suggested it. X-code is not. Also providing support for other IDEs does not impinge upon the current workflow or link it to VS in any way

    What Microsoft is calling VS for Mac is really just a rebranded and re-skinned Xamarin Studios with a few new tools added. It is not a port of the Windows version of VS.

    Is 'Visual Studio for Mac' Really Visual Studio?

  14. Julian M

    May 15 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro San Francisco Bay Area

    What Microsoft is calling VS for Mac is really just a rebranded and re-skinned Xamarin Studios with a few new tools added. It is not a port of the Windows version of VS.

    This is true but it has many of the core features I was referencing in my original post. It's come a long way in the last few years but I won't pretend is has parity with VS Mac. I was just pointing out that they have cross platform solutions that share things like intellisense, nugget packages, etc.

    Bit disappointed that most of the thread is focused on defending the current IDE. I originally stated I wasn't after criticism of the IDE for most people simple that there are missing features compared to other code editors/IDE's, and one possibility would be to provide alternative IDE support for a subset of power users.

    I'd rather wait for them to improve the Xojo IDE than for them having to support another IDE.

    Yup me too. That said the two big issues I pointed (real time debugging/highlighting and module based code share) haven't seen any improvement since I started using REAL basic. In that same time the framework has improved DRAMATICALLY, where as the IDE is feels has not improved nearly as much.

  15. Dave S

    May 15 San Diego, California USA

    I don't think that its a matter of "defending the current IDE"
    but more "this is the terrain upon which we find ourselves deployed".

    Saying the VS Code has this feature or that feature, or that the Xojo IDE lacks this or that... is a moot point.
    It is what it is, and you (and me, and everyone else) has a few choices.

    • submit feedback requests, and hope that some of you "wishes" come true in some future version of IDE
    • take it as it is, in all its glory (or lack thereof)
    • find (or develop) and alternative (or export/import) that allows VS editor today

    But I'm sure that Xojo has more things on their plate, than creating a whole new paradighm right now

  16. Julian M

    May 15 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro San Francisco Bay Area

    submit feedback requests, and hope that some of you "wishes" come true in some future version of IDE

    Have submitted feedback, also providing feedback in this thread.

    take it as it is, in all its glory (or lack thereof)

    Don't love the take its as is argument. I would never tell my clients to just "take it as it is". If I'm not meeting feature parity with competitive software they'll pick other options. That's not a good strategy for any business.

    find (or develop) and alternative (or export/import) that allows VS editor today

    I don't have time. Again I wouldn't expect my clients to develop alternatives to support my software's missing features. I do and however encourage integrations when the result is a improved solution. I don't however expect them to develop those partnerships and integrations but do listen to their feedback.

    Sounds like there's not a lot of support for this idea so i'm inclined to let it go. Too bad.

  17. Douglas H

    May 15 Pre-Release Testers

    @Julian M I don't have time.

    And that is precisely the point of creating feedback cases that people can vote on. The voting mechanism seems much more crucial to Xojo's decision on how to prioritize limited resources than forum threads. And that is how it seems to me it should be. In a perfect world with unlimited resources, Xojo may be able to accommodate many things.

    @Julian M Again I wouldn't expect my clients to develop alternatives to support my software's missing features.

    By the same token, have you already implemented everything your clients have mentioned (without raising prices)?

  18. Michel B

    May 16 Pre-Release Testers RubberViews.com

    @Julian M Have submitted feedback, also providing feedback in this thread.

    Discussions are fine, but they are completely futile as far as Xojo development decisions are concerned. Only feature requests count.

  19. Dirk C

    May 16 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Belgium, Zedelgem

    @Julian Mussi there are missing features compared to other code editors/IDE's

    Maybe you can make feature requests for what you think are missing features in the Xojo IDE compared to other IDE's through the feedback app and post them here. Then people can add their points to your requests and Xojo can see if there is demand among the developers for these requests. We've had some success with doing it that way.

  20. Neil B

    May 16 Pre-Release Testers

    @Dirk C Then people can add their points to your requests and Xojo can see if there is demand among the developers for these requests. We've had some success with doing it that way.

    I'm not sure what you call success? Feedback Case #30 is ranked number 5 and is 18 years old. I wouldn't really call that success.

    Similarly Feedback Case #1095 goes back to 2006 and is ranked number 7.

    Something simple like Feedback Case #27328 that is found in almost any text editor,was finally implemented after nearly five years.

    It appears that enhancements to the IDE are not very high on Xojo's priority list..

  21. Kevin G

    May 16 Pre-Release Testers, Xojo Pro Gatesheed, England

    @Neil B I'm not sure what you call success? Feedback Case #30 is ranked number 5 and is 18 years old. I wouldn't really call that success.

    Similarly Feedback Case #1095 goes back to 2006 and is ranked number 7.

    Something simple like Feedback Case #27328 that is found in almost any text editor,was finally implemented after nearly five years.

    It appears that enhancements to the IDE are not very high on Xojo's priority list..

    Feature wise, the IDE seems stuck in the 1990's. I'm into my 12th year of using RB & Xojo and I have yet to see any real improvements to code management or debugging. In some areas the product has actually went backwards rather than forwards.
    I imagine anybody coming to Xojo from another system must be shell shocked at the lack of features that are pretty much standard elsewhere.

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